okay, i know i said i'd hit a dry spell. but i've been inspired to pose a question. i've been thinking about it for awhile now-- talked it over with Sara Whitfield and Nathan Onifrichuk (both of whom brought up the question separately) and realized that it is a question many people ask. So here i am. at the risk of sounding polemical, i'm ready to pose the question and am also seeking your opinions.
At what point did it become the Christian mentality for girls to sit around and pretty much 'twiddle thumbs' until a guy asks them to start a relationship? i realize i need to qualify this here, because there will be some outcries of rage. i know its not really 'twiddling thumbs'--the goal of anyone (whether married or single) should be to glorify God and use the gifts He has given us to do so and to edify others. Thus, in singlehood, as a female, the overaching purpose of my life should be serving God and utilizing this special time of singlehood to do so. it should be to strive towards becoming the proverbs 31/titus 2 woman. Since four out of the seven commands for women in Titus 2 are applicable, irrespective of marital status, we, as single women, need to be upholding these commands and putting them into practice.
What i do mean, however, is that in the majority of Christian circles (especially among early twenty-somethings) the paradigm is that of guy initiating and girl responding. it seems to be frowned upon for a girl to even let on that she is interested, prior to a guy initiating. it is DEFINITELY less than desirable for a girl to ask a guy to start a relationship, but this isn't solely what i am speaking of. i speak of a girl merely showing interest before a guy initiating anything. where did this idea of girls doing nothing to show interest at all before a guy does anything come about?
in fact, with most of my christian girlfriends...if they like someone, and that someone hasn't expressed an interest, they'll actually spend less time with this person, than they would with any other guy friend. we'll erect multiple guards (in an attempt to guard the heart) and stay farther away from the said person instead of getting to know the person more in the hopes that perhaps later on, he too will develop feelings for us.
the said person finding out that he is liked prior to him saying anything is horrifying, and the thought of that happening is enough to warrant a the onslaught of a panic attack.
do not get me wrong--i am not a raging feminist here. in fact, i do not hold to the current views of feminism (note the word "current" which is very different than past views of feminism) because i believe, to quote Mark Driscoll, that men should responsibly lead homes and the church with a sacrificial love like Jesus Christ. And, i'm not saying i would WANT to ask a guy out--i would much rather prefer a guy to ask me to begin a relationship...and most godly guys i know would prefer it to be that way as well. What i am asking is: is it so wrong to show interest in a guy before he has stated (implicitly or explicitly) that he is interested?
i think its an interesting question to consider, and definitely stirs up the pot and shakes up our 'christian' paradigms.
where did the way we do dating evolve from? the Bible? or culture? why do younger Christians never go out on dates (its either i'm in a relationship or i'm single)? why do females have to sit around without doing anything at all, instead of indicating an interest in someone?
i realize that a response to this would be that men were created to be leaders, and so taking initiative is fundamental in being a leader. however, like my friend nathan stated, "knowing this, am i just regurgitating it because its what i've been taught, or do i actually believe it?" And if this 'leadership paradigm' is your response, then the question i would pose in response is...what about Ruth? Was her going up to Boaz unbiblical? hmm. that doesn't really make sense. Doing what she did TODAY however, would be quite counter-cultural.
at any rate, the preamble to my question was lengthy, but i think was necessary to pose the questions i did above. so now, its your turn! comment away (if possible back up your response with biblical references please)! i'm all ears.
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well well well. I'd have to say that i enjoy you getting it "out there" and i'm excited to here the response. The past few years being at Briercrest i have been more than emersed in the christian culture of dating so here's a few thoughts.
I think first of all that many Christians have become a bit legalisitc on the approach we have taken abou the woman's role (ie. a girl must never do anything one on one with a guy, she must never call, wink , smile, or laugh at jokes of someone of the opposite sex) and all this in the hope that we do not let a guy believe that we are actually interested. The funny part about this is that if we are actually interested in the guy it seems almost as if the more "holy" thing to do in the Christian circle is as Lydia mentioned...to seem less interested. What is so wrong with an awesome guy finding out we are not appauled by him an in fact we actually really enjoy/respect/appreciate him. Let's think biblically here shall we... Lydia already mentioned Ruth (fabulous woman isn't she?) you know when it was first written the book of Ruth was actually found directly after Proverbs 31...coincedence i think not. Ruth was submissive, hardworking, beautiful, etc. Why not show Boaz(a great man himself) that she is interested in being more than just some lady who picks up around his field? It is hard to discuss these relationship things when we see very little dating tips and advice throughout scripture. It is true the culture back then was strikingly different but it was fundamentally the same. Jesus rebuked the teachers of the law when they tried to enforce the customs of man...are we doing the same? Are we making it as though a woman cannot do this or that or the other thing or else that means she's less of a woman after God's heart? We are free. Amen to that!However, with all that being said...this freedom...let it not allow us to indulge in the sinful nature. If a woman let's every other guy on the block know she's interested...that's not very loving, if a woman let's a guy know by sinning in some other way, than of course this is not good. But my friends, by acting interested in a guy in a decent manner should not be frowned upon. I had much more to say (note the fact i said first of all and had only one point) but this post is far too long and i have a feeling im regugitating what Lydia already posted. Anyway looking forward to reading other thoughts.
lol. i don’t know where girls get all these ideas about how they should or shouldn’t act around guys, but its certainly not from me, and probably most guys i know are equally out to sea on why you ladies do the things you do. frankly it is confusing, so stop it. you need to hold a conference. send delegates from all the nations and all denominations so that they can set universal standards of conduct. create a clear book outlining all the signals and then distribute it to men everywhere so that we can finally get a clue. low, you know better than anyone where i am coming from with this. you know the folly from which i speak and that speak with experience and knowledge hard earned. from the depths of me inner being i decry, surely this must end, won’t somebody make it end. end this insanity now!
Hmmm... this is an interesting post. Definitely, Christian behaviour within relationships can be polar opposites with what the rest of secular culture dictates as appropriate behaviour within relationships.
These are some of my thoughts: No, I don't think it is wrong for a girl to show interest in a guy, to a certain extent. I say this for a number of reasons:
1) First of all, I think that if a girl stays away from the guy that she likes at all costs, what benefit is that to her? Will she spend hours brooding about how great he is, when maybe if she spent more time getting to know him, she might have found out that maybe he wasn't so great? (aka: if she is wasting her time) I think many girls that do this, spend eons in "dreamland", making a guy seem more amazing that he actually is, and that can be a little dangerous, not to mention impending upon her spiritual life. When she talks to him, that will bring about more "human" aspects. Can she also accept his flaws?
2) Most guys have actually admitted that they are in fact clueless. They will never know if you like them or not, no matter how obvious you think it is. May as well let them know you exist and are a decent person. Treat them as you would any other brother in Christ, but take time to ask questions, get to know them in a friendly/polite way without being overtly flirtatious or audacious. Pray constantly and in the meantime, act as a Godly woman before this guy.There is no reason to be scared of him. Besides, if you are always hiding from him, what is the likelihood that he will ever
show interest in you, if you are never present? I mean, unless you are counting on God to reveal you to this guy in a dream or something.....
3) Spending one on one time with a guy that you are interested in (and I guess this depends on how much you actually like this guy... in this case let's say the girl really really likes this guy), should probably be limited. Don't cause you or him to stumble.
I think Ruth is a great example of a Godly woman in such a circumstance, and her behaviour was not the least bit unBiblical. She acted as a dilligent worker, a devout daughter-in-law, and a patient and intelligent woman. Definitely not a thumb twiddler. Besides, even when Ruth was interested in Boaz, she didn't find another threshing field just to avoid him.
Ok... I know I'm making this really long, so I'm just going to cut straight to one more point: Christian girls are often overly paranoid that every little thing they do will make them stumble or lead them into hideous forms of temptation. Many times, to us girls, any form of showing "interest" is immediately branded as "flirting" and therefore ungodly and unBiblical behaviour, when it is not always so easy to classify. But anyways, avoiding a guy or just sitting around doing nothing does nothing to encourage and help our brothers grow spiritually. Aside from that, how can we expect a guy take initiative (which I think he should), if all the girls are avoiding him because they fear they will make him stumble? The question we girls should be asking, is not so much whether what we do is above reproach or crossing a border, or sending a bad message... but whether what we do is helping this guy to seek Christ in all he chooses to do. We want a guy who leads us closer to Christ, so should not we act the same?
Ok... that was long, but I hope that made sense.
might i add that in the case of Ruth approaching Boaz...it was NOT her idea, but the idea of her mother in-law Naomi. she went at the advice and suggestion of someone older and wiser. very much UNLIKE the youth of our day when attraction automatically equals action.
that said i honestly don't think anyone can figure this whole thing out. come on it's been two millenia. even with the perfect dating "conditions" how wise or all-knowing or all-powerful are we to know who matches and then how to manipulate the circumstances of our lives so that the marriage does happen?
hmm, shelly,
a little rebuttal. wow i should SO be studying.
a) just because someone older and wiser told her to do it doesn't change the fact that she did it. now..if someone older and wiser told me to make it clear to someone that i liked him, and i did it, it still wouldn't change the fact that there would be some sort of social grimacing in conservative right-wing christian circles right?
b) in the context of this blog and the circles we mix in, i don't think attraction automatically equals action. in fact, i think often times its the complete opposite. most guys i know (with the exception of maybe...2?) don't need a "whoa nelly!" they need a gentle push to....as d macdonald says, "shit or get off the can". often the problem in conservative circles is not action...its inaction.
c) i don't think the question was how to act in order to orchestrate marriage. it was asking rather, how christians found this dating paradigm that now exists. if it is biblical then we should hold to it. but if it isn't, then perhaps we need to change up our paradigm and start thinking of dating differently than what we've been taught to regurgitate.
This is an interesting line of conversation. It is true that Ruth did do some showing of interest. At the same time I have had problems when I just be myself which is loving kind friendly smiley and guys think I'm flirting with them I mean take a chill pill I'm not interested in all of you. I find just the way men are made up they like to pursue prey and would like what they can't have which is probably why women sometimes play hard to get. From my conversations with guys including my current boyfriend men are really appreciative of any kind of indication that we're interested. I don't mean throwing ourselves at them but gentle hints of interest. Men are clueless I agree...
hey jasmine! ^_^
Me and Ryan are equally frustrated. Why do girls gotta complicate things so much. I first met Ryan at a C4C meeting, I thought he was an ok guy, nothing special, you know. But later I invited him out to a social while we were in the washroom, and things really took off from there.
Yeah, when I first met Andrew I wasn't too impressed or anything. I mean he seemed smart but kinda boring. But then when he asked me out to a social while we were in the guy's washroom. I thought, sure, why not. What harm could it do? Well, the more time we spent together the more I got to learn just how great a friend he could be.
So you see, starting an ongoing, committed, fruitful relationship is not a hard thing. All you girls need to lighten up and go with the flow.
ill be back later to comment my thoughts lol. im about to leave work, and i wanted to write more lol
-vince
the age old debate :) well, almost age old. my thoughts (some are rehashing on others):
It's not always wrong to show interest in a guy. Where it gets messy is why we girls do it. If we have a balance between showing interest and trusting that God is still fully in control and aware of our situation, then I say go for it. BUT we should probably hold off if:
1. we are seeking attention because we need affirmation/approval from guys
2. we are trying/hoping to manipulate the situation
3. we are fearful that if we don't step up, nothing will ever happen (ie, we aren't trusting God)
4. we are competing with other girls
Yeah, I think it takes a big heart evaluation first. Because, from my experience at least, my motives are often more mixed than I'll admit. But there are and have been times that I've felt it was appropriate to let guys know I'm interested. (now, that's not saying they always pick up on it...)
Yeah, I'm with Beth. But self-evaluation is hard because let's be serious, if the rest of the female population is anything like me, we're all boy-crazy-freaks and our seretonin levels skyrocket when we see boys with guitars and it just gets messy after that. Being rational is difficult with all that seratonin. Which is why having girl-friends who can keep you accountable is good.
LOL girls have something equivalent to testosterone! That's crazy....
I have nothing to say against what you posted Lydia. I think the whole women waiting for the man to take the lead is a hugely cultural thing and not necessarily biblical thing.
And also take note that the ultra conservative Christian crowd also cringes when people mention card playing (not even gambling), swimming, and dancing. Do we acknowledge them on this as well... I think not.
Here's my two cents on the topic however. Being a guy, I honestly have no idea when a girl is taking an interest in me or just being friendly. Not really wanting to think about the whole "a girl liking me" issue, and also not knowing what to do about it if said issue were to arise, I just do my best to assume that the girl is being friendly (which I hope I'm right in assuming). And besides the fact that twice have I been burned trying to express an interest in girls, I've given up -_-;;
So whether if what I speculate is true and that this is mostly just a cultural thing that has sprung up, I'm all for women being more intentional about expressing their interest. If I could have it handed to me on a silver platter... that would make every guy's life so much easier than trying to decipher that crazy feminine mind. Yes we're clueless and we need all the clues we can get!
i wholeheartedly agree with BETH! well put. well put.
pure gold @ ryan and andrew's comments... oh the things that happen when guys are in the washroom. lolz.
i completely agree @ jonathan. be more intentional about expressing ur interest. of course, this probly doesn't mean that we'll pick up on it... but at least ur not running away from us (and that i would seriously consider as a sign that a girl doesn't like me!)
isn't it estrogen not serotonin? unless ur trying 2 say that boys make u want to go to sleep (in the denotation sense of the word sleep)
all this to say that girls... let us know that u care. :D
lol.
hmm jonathan...forgive me if i'm reading you incorrectly...but what you're making it sound like is that as women, we're supposed to TELL the guy we're interested so that the guy doesn't need to do any work. what pansy notion is that? say that i'm reading your statement incorrectly.
jess wynja, i freaking LOVED your comment about hormone levels skyrocketing when we see guys with guitars. that was PRICELESS.
loco...could it not be serotonin levels? i mean serotonin does not only affect sleep...but mood as well. much more likely would be estrogen. although dopamine would work as well since its the reward pathway of the brain.
beth: loved your comment.
ryan and andrew: oh man you guys are great.
so are you monica.
Er... I'm a pansy! :P
Haha, yeah well I can see where you got that with my whole bit about the silver platter... but that's not really what I meant. Just saying that I have nothing against women being more intentional... or to put it another way, agreeing with most of what was said above. I just figured that it would look dumb to ONLY say that, so I threw in some other things.
Gah refreshing... see what it does.
Oh and btw, I'm listening to the story of Ruth right now on Adventures in Odyssey and just sped read it myself... and one might notice that Boaz made some pretty intentional actions to favour Ruth BEFORE Ruth went and did her laying at his feet thing (which is apparently the equivalent of Ruth proposing to him in Arabic tradition). She then responded with her actions... so it still doesn't let men off the hook.
DISCLAIMER: I didn't read any of the above comments yet. I just wanted to talk. haha. I'll go back and read as soon as I'm done.
i was thinking the same thing this summer. I was sitting around thinking, "what is the biblical basis for being "pursued"?" ... I call this "Princess" mentality. I HATE the princess mentality. Yes, you are God's royalty. But you are not a princess in a pretty pink dress in an ivory tower waiting for a knight to come rescue you. You are supposed to be a woman seeking hard to be like Proverbs 31, faithfully and humbly becoming more Christ-like.
When I was still trying to figure this out I was reading Song of Solomon, hoping to see a model of the guy running after the girl. Except... half the time in Song, the girl is chasing after her lover! "What??"
But ultimately in a Godly relationship, the guy should LEAD. I think that encompasses pursuing, protecting, and a certain degree of guidance. But girls aren't supposed to be deadweights. They're meant to encourage, support, spur on... Sometimes we forget that not all guys are immediate risk-takers who will go all out to run after a girl immediately. If we are interested, and praying about it and upholding boundaries, we should encourage.
phew... off my chest.
wooo alison!
loved that!
datz a gud one @ alison. girls shudn't b deadweights! u took d words ryt out of mah lips. :D
lydia... dopamine would work. a better alternative than serotonin i think.
jess wynja... i've always said i wanted 2 learn d guitar.. ur comment only makes it imperative i learn and learn fast! hahaha
sid.....
this whole dopamine/serotonin conversation PROVES that you and are are the nerdiest people alive.
y-ikes.
alright! for the record, i am sick and tired of all the girls out there who won't stop pursuing me! learn to take a hint ladies, and stop serving yourselves up on silver platters! okay... i think this is all getting out of hand (and i don't just mean my ego). it seem obvious to me that all you ladies are discontent, trapped in glass cages of emotional frustration, and i really don't think i am going out on a limb when i say that guys generally like a hint or two, with maybe a bit of encouragement on the side. so then what is the problem? where is the hold up? for who's benefit are we upholding this un-biblical construction that no one agrees with? when it comes down to it i think all of this is a simple matter of us not having enough fiber in our diets. its hard to know what to do when everything is so irregular. but don’t worry, embracing fiber is easy! did you know that a single apple has more fiber than an entire bowl of cereal? now that’s food for thought!
Wow... i thought I could be random, but after that Ryan... I don't know. I'd have to say that you're the king of randomness and spontaneity. Good job :)
And I think Ryan is probably right in saying it sounds like we all agree with Lydia. Lol good job.
welll i'm not at all psych-inclined, but isn't seratonin the hormone that deals with happiness. maybe i should clarify: boys playing guitars (especially when its their own well written material) makes me giddy with glee. I really can't articluate it, but it's pretty much the most intense my-goodness-i'm-going-to-drop-dead-with-joy -slash-excitement-slash-smiling-too-much feeling ever. And if boys make music for me, well that's just cruel... in the best way possible. Cruel, because it quite possibly could be compared to a scantly clad female on a ferrari to men: it shouln't be done unless its in the context of marriage... haha or something like that.
alison, i like your style.
jess - definitely talking about dopamine.
lydia - no reference to real names. use loco instead. :D this is the internet and itz a scary place! even though, i think everyone knows by now who i am. i hope ppl blogstalk meeh as much as i blogstalk ppl... lolz
mmm "Loco", serotonin DEFINITELY works as well.
end of discussion.
well I tried to post and I don't know if it went up. Was a picture of a serotonin necklace (if it worked properly.)
Also check out here,
which says that serotonin induces feelings of happiness, satisfaction, and relaxation. And if the reaction that Jess is talking about in terms of guys with guitars, then it is definately NOT serotonin :P
Gah, the hyperlink didn't work for some reason.
http://www.madewithmolecules.com/serotoninnecklace.html
There you go.
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